Curse

erk · Dec 18, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Don't know about ATs but GW pvp is dead for a number of reasons. The players grew up and nothing to hold their interest. Oh, and this.....

http://www.allakhazam.com/sdetail.html?story=11582

Anet declined to be a part of it when the CGS first started. GW has no more potential is a competitive game. Unless that trend changes with GW2 I don't foresee anything being any better. If you really want to be a competitive game get involved with the CGS. In 5 years or so it will have a huge impact on how games are embraced by players. In its short 2 years its already made a big impact.

I don't agree, the game should hold peoples PvP interest regardless of championships. The theory is reinforced buy the millions of people that play competitive sports for recreation every weekend worldwide. Usually there own local club/school ladder is enough satisfaction. That's how most people are.

ensoriki · Dec 18, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

IMO just another problem.

GW puts a lot of Gold sinks for Guilds, sigils are 17k last time I checked.
Fully adding everything to your guild is a bit of a chore, and pve players don't need/want all those features in their guild because they don't use many of them >.<

Ladder reset would be nice too..

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anet declined to be a part of it when the CGS first started. GW has no more potential is a competitive game.

Paid competitions motivate a relatively small portion of the playerbase. It's a nice cherry on top for when you've already got a solid competitive community. I assure you most of the people playing Starcraft, Counter-Strike, or whatever don't really give half a shit what the people that play that game for a living do.

Having engaging gameplay, good support, and not punching newbies in the face is what makes competitive games grow instead of die.

Engaging gameplay was damaged by the balance trainwreck that is Nightfall, most PvP arenas have been marred either by inattention or poorly-thought-out changes, and the trademark ridiculously harsh learning curve/barrier to entry continues to cut off the inflow of new players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

TIn the case of WoW arena has been really changing the game since it was introduced.

WoW has some of the worst-designed PvP of any MMO I've played. From long-term mez and disable effects, relentlessly spammy dispels, mana depletion, skills that encourage you to paintrain, and buttonmashorific healing, and developers that refuse to deliver any sort of meaningful nerf to three classes that are blatantly overpowered to the point of repeatedly-posted statistical evidence proving they are dominating their arena brackets, it has everything that could possibly make a PvP game suck.

And WoW on the competitive scene? Did you see the Scorpid taming debacle on WSVG? They're clueless even in their own game.

WoW is popular on the competitive scene because it immensely popular outside of the competitive scene. People want to see it, and it's not because it's reknown for its interesting PvP.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2007, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Paid competitions motivate a relatively small portion of the playerbase. It's a nice cherry on top for when you've already got a solid competitive community. I assure you most of the people playing Starcraft, Counter-Strike, or whatever don't really give half a shit what the people that play that game for a living do.

This is true at this point in time. Competitive gaming has only really become mainstream in recent years. That will change over time as its only going to get more popular.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Having engaging gameplay, good support, and not punching newbies in the face is what makes competitive games grow instead of die.

I agree and this is in the direction wow is taking the game. PvP gear is now better than pve gear. They will still have to battle with pvp and pve being combined and affecting one another but so does GW. Up until the PvP access kit GW newbs have been punched in the face. Even after that they are getting punched with rank and champ points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Engaging gameplay was damaged by the balance trainwreck that is Nightfall, most PvP arenas have been marred either by inattention or poorly-thought-out changes, and the trademark ridiculously harsh learning curve/barrier to entry continues to cut off the inflow of new players.

Factions was also a balance nightmare. I believe that is always going to be the case with GW's business model. How you do you get players to buy the new chapter without introducing power creep? I don't see a way around it. If the previous skills are good enough to compete in pvp why should I go out and pay more money?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

WoW has some of the worst-designed PvP of any MMO I've played. From long-term mez and disable effects, relentlessly spammy dispels, mana depletion, skills that encourage you to paintrain, and buttonmashorific healing, and developers that refuse to deliver any sort of meaningful nerf to three classes that are blatantly overpowered to the point of repeatedly-posted statistical evidence proving they are dominating their arena brackets, it has everything that could possibly make a PvP game suck.

Depends on the bracket what is OP. Just like GW. Some things are OP in HA others are in GvG. What I have noticed in WoW is MORE players are jumping into pvp than ever before. While more player are leaving GW pvp and less are even interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

WoW is popular on the competitive scene because it immensely popular outside of the competitive scene. People want to see it, and it's not because it's reknown for its interesting PvP.

This is just the same as a movie critic. No one really cares what the critics think of a movie. They will still go see it and have their own opinions. PvP players give 2 shits about what game critics think of WoW's pvp. Millions are having fun in pvp and tournaments are opening up to appeal to the real hardcore players while making it easier for new players to get the gear they need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

I don't agree, the game should hold peoples PvP interest regardless of championships. The theory is reinforced buy the millions of people that play competitive sports for recreation every weekend worldwide. Usually there own local club/school ladder is enough satisfaction. That's how most people are.

Most people get involved with a sport because they have seen it on TV when they are kids. Without that exposure many people wouldn't be playing the sport at all. There are professional ping pong players but how often do you see it on TV? How many people do you know that play it for fun? I do mean beyond the frat house party with everyone drunk.

Its all about exposure.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

I assure you most of the people playing Starcraft, Counter-Strike, or whatever don't really give half a shit what the people that play that game for a living do.

I do not agree.

Espically not StarCraft.

You know, in Korea, they actually have a channel dedicated to showing professional StarCraft matches 24/7? Thats all they show. And they show pro strats etc.

It is one of the most watched channels there.

EDIT:
I just checked.

They have 3 now.

erk · Dec 19, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I do not agree.

Espically not StarCraft.

You know, in Korea, they actually have a channel dedicated to showing professional StarCraft matches 24/7? Thats all they show. And they show pro strats etc.

It is one of the most watched channels there.

EDIT:
I just checked.

They have 3 now.

We have obs mode for that sort of thing, shame there isn't an archive of old matches to obs.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

We have obs mode for that sort of thing, shame there isn't an archive of old matches to obs.

And tell me good sir, how is observer which can only be seen by people in-game (a number that is somewhere below 3 million by quite a bit (multiple accounts etc) I believe it is?) the same as 3 TV channels with real talking people commenting on matches that can be seen by an entire nation?

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

This is true at this point in time. Competitive gaming has only really become mainstream in recent years. That will change over time as its only going to get more popular.

Name the most prominent coverage you've seen a game competition outside of Korea get. Best I've seen is an occasional MTV special.

Competitive games live and die by the general playerbase, not the elite. The elite are just there to get the general playerbase excited.

Quote:

Depends on the bracket what is OP.

2v2: Warlock + Resto Druid, Warrior + Resto Druid
3v3: See above.
5v5: Warrior + Paladin
BGs: Warlocks and Hunters, Warrior + Priest/Paladin

One way or another, the fact that practically every bracket is utterly dominated by such a tiny fraction of the playerbase is pathetic. In a game where you have to grind your way to viability in PvP, imbalance is unacceptable, and imbalance so blatant in a game with as much money to burn on development as WoW is stupid beyond words.

Quote:

This is just the same as a movie critic. No one really cares what the critics think of a movie. They will still go see it and have their own opinions.

What I mean is that the only reason WoW even has PvP events is because of its size, which grants it a huge pool of potentially-interested players and a massive stage to be recognized on if you win. That size, by the way, was entirely due to its PvE content.

So basically, WoW can have a decent PvP following because the game is just that huge, even if the whole game is built entirely on PvE. Other games actually need good PvP to do that, because they don't have 9 million players to scrounge up a few competition teams from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I do not agree.

Espically not StarCraft.

You know, in Korea, they actually have a channel dedicated to showing professional StarCraft matches 24/7? Thats all they show. And they show pro strats etc.

It is one of the most watched channels there.

I was worried about mentioning Starcraft for that very reason. However, I would attribute that more to cultural synergy with Korea than support of paid competitions. Shooters are generally a better comparison, they live and die by the general playerbase, not by becoming a national sport. Starcraft's impact in America is a better comparison, as Guild Wars is not exactly the national sport of Korea yet.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

I was worried about mentioning Starcraft for that very reason. However, I would attribute that more to cultural synergy with Korea than support of paid competitions. Shooters are generally a better comparison, they live and die by the general playerbase, not by becoming a national sport. Starcraft's impact in America is a better comparison, as Guild Wars is not exactly the national sport of Korea yet.

Actually, I would liken it to the fact that Korea has always been a more "gamer centered" nation than we have. Sure, we've had arcades etc, but you can't honestly say we've had very much coverage on games on TV ever except for ads. They're still seen as a somewhat "nerdy" thing to do in America. In Korea, its the norm.

It hasn't been until JUST RECENTLY where America has started to move away from that, though the press still sees it as nerdy, you see tournaments on live TV over in America and Europe now.

We're just a bit behind Korea when it comes to a gaming culture, thats all.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2007, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Name the most prominent coverage you've seen a game competition outside of Korea get. Best I've seen is an occasional MTV special.

The CGS is sponsored by Microsoft, Best Buy, Mountain Dew, and Directv. Those were the sponsors when it first started at least I'm sure more have been picked up. Also the CGS is shown on Directv which has over 16 million customers. They show every thing from matches, background stories, and even the first ever Gaming Draft to make a national league of players spanning over many different games and states in the USA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Competitive games live and die by the general playerbase, not the elite. The elite are just there to get the general playerbase excited.

That's exactly how professional sports work as well. You get excited by your favorite players and motivates you play the game and maybe one day becoming a professional yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

2v2: Warlock + Resto Druid, Warrior + Resto Druid

You got that part right. The rest of it is complete inaccurate. I suggest you look at the top teams in the armory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

What I mean is that the only reason WoW even has PvP events is because of its size, which grants it a huge pool of potentially-interested players and a massive stage to be recognized on if you win. That size, by the way, was entirely due to its PvE content.

How is that any different that GW? Most of GW's population was and always has been pve. GW's size now is almost entirely PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

So basically, WoW can have a decent PvP following because the game is just that huge, even if the whole game is built entirely on PvE. Other games actually need good PvP to do that, because they don't have 9 million players to scrounge up a few competition teams from.

Again check the armory. Look at the ranking system of players that are actually ACTIVE. Its huge. As the 2 players in the interview said they ONLY play PvP. I don't think they are alone on that.

GW's pvp can be attributed to a few hundred players if even that. GW missed it shot a long long time ago. Now its just cutting its losses and moving on to GW2.

Unfortunately the business model is its own worst enemy from a customer stand point. I'm sure its worth wild for the company side but for players you can bet the game will get progressively worse as it gets older. The business model calls for new things (meaning more powerful mechanics and skills) to be added to the game to continue selling copies. Instead of fixing and improving on existing problems they will simply move on to the next chapter or series because they need more sales to keep the money coming in.

Am I interested in buying GW2? No I'm not at this point. That view may change as more information and the actual games gets here.

Am I interested in playing GW? No I'm not. I can count the number times a good changes was made to the game. I can use less than 1 full hand to do so. Most of the changes to the game were poorly implemented or went against everything the player base was saying.

GW has been a dying game ever since Factions honestly. People just didn't leave slowly they flooded. I don't care what the Anet spin machine puts out my F list speaks for itself. Everyone I talk to that does remain in the game F's list looks exactly the same....inactive. I only did pvp so all these people were pvp players. This game is far beyond saving. Wait for GW2 and hope for the best.

erk · Dec 19, 2007, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

And tell me good sir, how is observer which can only be seen by people in-game (a number that is somewhere below 3 million by quite a bit (multiple accounts etc) I believe it is?) the same as 3 TV channels with real talking people commenting on matches that can be seen by an entire nation?

Big Brother is viewed by millions that don't participate in it, with commentary, and it's crap. Korean TV is using Starcraft to make cheap TV content with a low res game, they obviously have nothing better to show, I mean they don't even have 3 iPod channels and there are 120mill of those things out there! Just because something is popular on TV doesn't mean it's any good, just look at TV in general as proof of that.

Obs mode is for GW players, it does not cater for spectators that don't own a copy, it's not a marketing exercise, it's an "on demand" hi-res replay of current matches, you don't have to stay glued to the sequential medium of TV to see the match you want, you just click on it. There are millions of people that have used obs mode and haven't had to put up with TV ads.

Like I said before, an obs mode archive would be handy to have.

BTW. GW looks crap on normal 640 x 480 NTSC TV so you would need a HDTV channel to do it any justice. I am sure A.net could get Korean TV coverage if they wanted it to, they are a Korean owned company after all!

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Korean TV is using Starcraft to make cheap TV content with a low res game, they obviously have nothing better to show, I mean they don't even have 3 iPod channels and there are 120mill of those things out there! Just because something is popular on TV doesn't mean it's any good, just look at TV in general as proof of that.

Obs mode is for GW players, it does not cater for spectators that don't own a copy, it's not a marketing exercise, it's an "on demand" hi-res replay of current matches, you don't have to stay glued to the sequential medium of TV to see the match you want, you just click on it. There are millions of people that have used obs mode and haven't had to put up with TV ads.

Like I said before, an obs mode archive would be handy to have.

Um...don't have anything better to put on?

Yeah...

Korean TV has WAY MORE channels than America TV does.

WAY MORE.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Also the CGS is shown on Directv which has over 16 million customers.

DirecTV has EVERYTHING on it, it is a satellite network, what do you expect? 16 million customers? Please don't start with the stupid stat twisting. DirecTV customers do not watch every channel on DirecTV at once. If you're going to use that measure, then my website is even bigger coverage, because it's available to everyone that's connected to the Internet.

Does it wind up on a channel that actually has a significant base?

Quote:

That's exactly how professional sports work as well. You get excited by your favorite players and motivates you play the game and maybe one day becoming a professional yourself.

The lifeblood of any online game are its day-to-day players, especially when every player is one sales unit.

Quote:

You got that part right. The rest of it is complete inaccurate. I suggest you look at the top teams in the armory.

Just did, the 5v5 ladder is still owned by Warrior/Pally. Pity Caster stopped compiling stats back in August otherwise I'd be able to rub it in more easily.

Quote:

How is that any different that GW? Most of GW's population was and always has been pve. GW's size now is almost entirely PvE.

Because being "the best in WoW" is a lot more significant than "the best in GW" because WoW is huge. Because when you have 9 million players, it doesn't matter if the PvP sucks, you'll have enough people interested in it to form teams, especially when PvE rewards are offered.

Quote:

GW's pvp can be attributed to a few hundred players if even that. GW missed it shot a long long time ago. Now its just cutting its losses and moving on to GW2.

GW did not "miss their shot." They reached a maintenance nightmare and the playerbase was progressively shrinking. It takes a lot to make an old game stay popular.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Does it wind up on a channel that actually has a significant base?

Yes it does. Dtv has its own channel where concerts, the fizz (youtube tv) and other orginal series are shown. Because its Dtv's own channel its advertised on every other channel. Dtv has limited control of advertisement time on all of its channels even local channels. Say you have a local car dealership commercial on a local channel. Dtv may choose not to air that commercial instead putting another commercial of its choice in that spot. The same is true for even national channels.

The American market is 16 million subscribers. That is not a spin of stats. Yes Dtv is a global network but is divided between many different branches based on region. Dtv Mexico and europe is not compiled together with Dtv USA. I know this because I used to work for them. You can also find out more about things like that from their investors relations page.

I say that GW missed its shot because it did not continue the tournaments they once boasted about as a draw to the game. Repeated failures through poor implemented features. Adding features no one even wanted. Adding features people did want but then again doing it very poorly. Other games have surpassed GW in many ways. Even games that were out before GW. Instead of embracing that very small market of pvp players that GW once controlled they dropped the ball too many times for those players to stick around.

I can remember when there was 100+ districts in RA alone just in on the US servers. At least 15 int district HA and about 10 USA districts at the same time. Thousands of guilds playing GvG. I don't mean newby guilds that played 1 time and stuck on the ladder forever in the same spot. There are reasons the game has fallen so far. I used to think it would get better but I gave up as have so many others. I got tired of waiting on Anet or more so tired of Anet's mistakes.

I would love the game to be back to its former glory and I hope GW2 does well but I think too many players have been disappointed by Anet to return.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The American market is 16 million subscribers. That is not a spin of stats.

It's a spin on stats because there are not 16 million people watching CSG. If you add 200 more channels, you'll probably get another few million subscribers, and they're also probably not watching CSG, but the number of subscribers will go up.

The number of subscribers on something is especially irrelevant on satellite, because the high channel count decreases the likelihood that people signed up to view a given piece of content.

You're basically saying there are 16 million people that are ABLE to view something, which doesn't mean they're viewing it.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It's a spin on stats because there are not 16 million people watching CSG. If you add 200 more channels, you'll probably get another few million subscribers, and they're also probably not watching CSG, but the number of subscribers will go up.

The number of subscribers on something is especially irrelevant on satellite, because the high channel count decreases the likelihood that people signed up to view a given piece of content.

You're basically saying there are 16 million people that are ABLE to view something, which doesn't mean they're viewing it.

Dtv's channel is available to everyone that is a subscriber no matter what lvl of programming they subscribe to.

Keep in mind that is 16 million active Dtv accounts. Accounts consist of only 1 name. Those account holders also have children, teens, and consist of young adults. Yes people do watch the CSG on dtv. In fact its one of the most watched programs. I'm sure I could find the number of viewers if I really looked. Would be easier if I still worked for them but oh well.

The point remains competitive gaming is moving to a professional level. You are either on board or left behind. Games can still function as single player games, in which GW has turned into, and be great. For games that are serious about pvp and want to get their customer's attention in years to come the professional level will have a direct impact on this.

DarkNecrid · Dec 19, 2007, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Dtv's channel is available to everyone that is a subscriber no matter what lvl of programming they subscribe to.

Keep in mind that is 16 million active Dtv accounts. Accounts consist of only 1 name. Those account holders also have children, teens, and consist of young adults. Yes people do watch the CSG on dtv. In fact its one of the most watched programs. I'm sure I could find the number of viewers if I really looked. Would be easier if I still worked for them but oh well.

The point remains competitive gaming is moving to a professional level. You are either on board or left behind. Games can still function as single player games, in which GW has turned into, and be great. For games that are serious about pvp and want to get their customer's attention in years to come the professional level will have a direct impact on this.

There was some 350,000,000 viewers for the finals all across the world.

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

DThe point remains competitive gaming is moving to a professional level. You are either on board or left behind. Games can still function as single player games, in which GW has turned into, and be great. For games that are serious about pvp and want to get their customer's attention in years to come the professional level will have a direct impact on this.

Interest in high-level competition in video games hinges entirely on the familiarity and interest in the game, so making competitions viable requires keeping the game itself viable among its potential audience anyway. One way or another, the game has to address its basic playerbase to stay viable. Sticking to the elites means that the core playerbase will shrink to the point that there is no point in hosting competitions in it anyway, because nobody will care.

The lower-level players form both the foundation that the competitive players arise from, and the audience that gives them a stage worth competing on them. Without them, the game is dead.

In order to keep its core playerbase viable, it needs to be able to keep new players coming in to deal with the loss that inevitably comes from hemorrhaging players who just aren't interested in it any more. Guild Wars has failed to do that.

twicky_kid · Dec 19, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

In order to keep its core playerbase viable, it needs to be able to keep new players coming in to deal with the loss that inevitably comes from hemorrhaging players who just aren't interested in it any more. Guild Wars has failed to do that.

So you think that by not holding tournaments or not being a part of the CGS would have made no difference?

Riotgear · Dec 19, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

So you think that by not holding tournaments or not being a part of the CGS would have made no difference?

Made a difference towards keeping the elite competitive scene alive? Probably made some difference. Made a difference towards keeping the general playerbase interested? No, it didn't. Especially when observer mode has already provided an easy way for interested players to get in on the tournaments.

EDIT -- By the time the paid tournaments stopped, the game was already kind of passed the point of no return (that point being Nightfall).